In response to a post on another forum by a respected Christian believer, I wrote the following story. It's a fresher version of my deconversion out of religion about 8 years ago and it has a cleaner feel along with a more broad application.
Just some thoughts.
--Wag--
-----------------------------------------
I find it truly appealing that we as potential opposition can discuss religion without getting flaming mad at each other and remaining friends at the other end of such discussion. At least, I hope that's the case. I have a great deal of respect for you, Ron, and for others here who have been so patient and collected during these discussions of their beliefs.
I recall at about age 7 or 8 I was first taught about the flood and Noah's miraculous escape. That is my first memory of doubting religion. (I was only given a Mormon perspective of it but for that particular story, it was a fair and comparable version to that which is told by Judeo-Christian religions and sects everywhere.) I just couldn't see it. The world is a big place. How did ALL of the pairs of animals get on the ark? Was it really THAT big? Then, I read it a little closer and discovered that only the unclean animals were in pairs. The clean animals were sent seven pairs each! Talk about making the problem worse!
My boat of belief was really foundering. I asked my parents who said, "Have faith and in time, god will reveal the secret of that mystery to you." To me, though, faith meant searching for the answer and showing one's seriousness and devotion by doing so. I continued to ask around. One of my teachers at church suggested that the flood was regional and didn't encompass the entire earth, just the local area. That made a little sense but didn't quite jive with the written word as I understood it. I filed the idea away as a possibility for later reference.
I went back to my parents a couple of times. They didn't know the answers to my questions but wouldn't say so. After only a couple of rounds, they finally got frustrated (read that, "angry") with me and told me to keep my peace. I learned to keep my mouth shut and have a care when asking questions or challenging certain religious teachings of which I had doubt. There were several: The virgin birth (the Mormon answer to THAT is wild!!), the adventures of Moses, the miracles of Jesus and Paul, etc.
As I grew up and left home, I continued to wonder and ask questions here and there but the habit of my childhood was to accept everything on faith and to not challenge the teachings of my childhood. I really wanted to believe. I wanted to believe that god was ever present in my life. Indeed, Mormonism taught that you can actually KNOW by god's influence that he is there in our lives.
That, then, was always the critical test: Pray and know. Throughout my entire life for as long as I could remember, I had been doing exactly that: Praying to know. No answer had been forthcoming by the time I was 34 or so years old. Again, parents and teachers kept telling me that in god's due time, I would get my answers from the spirit of god. All around me though, friends and family were getting THEIR answers, where was mine?
I think any belief I might have had began to die a slow death as people suggested that perhaps I was too sinful and needed to repent. Suggestions began to come forth from people indicating that perhaps I was not reading the scriptures enough or not praying and fasting enough or that I had too many contentious relationships with people which were unresolved or that I wasn't paying my tithing diligently or . . . .
The list was pretty long but it boiled down to the idea that I was not righteous enough to get a testimony of the truth from god. I wanted it, though, and I struggled ever more and more all the time to get that answer.
Finally, at one point, a book I read cut it loose for me: It was NOT me that was the problem. God was there for the sinner, not the righteous and that if anyone deserved his spiritual testament it was me but not because of anything I was doing or not doing. Simply because I was one of his children. That book made it clear that Jesus was not waiting for me to do anything in particular except for one thing: To have faith.
If I had felt I ever had faith before, I was mistaken. At that moment, belief coupled with faith swelled in my heart and soul to the point that I believed with all my soul that I was going to be given my answers by god and Jesus right then and I immediately hit my knees in prayer, fully expecting to get the answer I had sought throughout my life.
Nothing.
I continued to pray. Still nothing. For an entire day, I was on my knees, praying to know, praying for greater faith and belief. It was not about Mormonism any more, it was about Jesus and about god. Still nothing. At the end of that day, I arose with a belief that there was no god. I hadn't expected god to speak to me with thunder and lightning. Indeed, I had no expectations on how he would answer my prayer. But I believed with all my heart that if god answered me, there would be no doubt remaining in my heart and soul about what god and Jesus were all about and what their intentions are for me.
This next part is the most important part of my story:
I stood up from those prayers with greater doubt than I had ever had before. For a brief moment, I was angry. Angry at my life, my parents, my religion, my religious teachers, the rest of my family; pretty much everyone I had trusted throughout my life.
That anger lasted for the blink of an eye. In the next blink of an eye, I became an atheist and all of my anger dissappeared. Why be angry at a god who isn't there? The feeling of peace that washed over me was the spiritual experience I had been seeking all of my life. The description of it matched what I had always had taught would happen to me by true believers, both within my childhood religion of Mormonism and by those who had taught me from a true Christian faith. (Yes, I do know the difference! :D)
THAT was the spiritual experience I had sought for so very long. All of my anger, my guilt and my fears were gone and ever have been since that time about 8 years ago. The feeling is barely describable and at that time was when I realized that I had been chasing someone else's dream.
I went on a crusade. There was a short time there when I went on the attack and was truly militant toward religions of all types but especially Mormonism and Christianity. I said quite a few hurtful things to people though fortunately, it was possible to work to repair that damage. My tirade lasted for about three months or so.
One day I was reading a book by Carl Sagan and getting heated up about a lot of things he was saying. Two thirds of the way through it, I realized all at once that I was becoming again what I thought I had left behind. I realized I was becoming dogmatic and chauvenistic about my atheism more than I had been about religion!!!
I consider myself very fortunate that I was able to stop and realize that the most important thing in life is our loved ones. Our friends and our families are our highest priority and other people come very close to that priority as well, just because they are all human beings. (No, it doesn't mean we become indisciriminately open to people without thought and with only emotiion but that's a subject for another time.)
In other words, what life is all about is the people around us. How we treat people in this life is the most important aspect of what we will ever do. Indeed, that belief is also taught by many religions.
I also realized at that point that open-mindedness is a critical factor. I resolved to stay open-minded about the things people try to teach me. (Again, that does not mean that we have to indiscriminately take in everything and incorporate it. It could drive a man crazy.) It did mean, however, that any well-conceived teaching was well-worth consideration. Not the ramblings of mindless idiots, don't get me wrong. I don't believe that all Christians are fools at all. I do run into Christian fools from time to time but I run into just as many atheist fools, Buddhist fools, Wiccan fools, etc. etc.
By the same token, there are just as many intelligent people within all of these beliefs to whom it is well worth the time it takes to listen.
I spent about two years taking in various teachings from a lot of different people, many who are preachers and teachers within their religions. They are devoted followers or practitioners and deserving of the respect of any of us. They have yet to be convincing to me, however. As we talk, they have yet to move me.
Still, I keep my eyes open. I no longer spend time looking under the rocks and in the holes. I no longer go out into the field seeking answers. But I watch. I listen and I carefully consider the possibility that there COULD be a god and there COULD be a sacrifice that was made for me by Jesus.
There have been many comments made here on this board and elsewhere which serve to keep my mind open on the subject of the existence of god. I still read to see where they go and how they approach. To see if there is the possibility that I'm wrong and they are right. Thus far, as I said, I'm still unconvinced but rest assured, I'm not switched off to the possibilities! There is still a chance, at least in my mind, that perhaps some day someone will say something that changes my mind.
Until that day comes, however, I remain an atheist. However, I am still devoted to the idea that people are the most important aspect of our lives and that all peope deserve a fair shot. Of course, I go off from time to time but not as much as I used to and I surely work to keep that from happening as much as I possibly can.
Beyond this point, my story will become a ramble so I sign off from writing this now. There is more, of course, and there are always more questions from religious adherents and I'm always open to answering those beliefs in the full expectation that open-mindedness is something that is needful for all of us.
My best,
--Wag--
Monday, December 25, 2006
Wednesday, December 13, 2006
This morning, I got an e-mail from a Christian friend of mine who was contemplating the idea that if god has such a beautiful plan of salvation via Christ's sacrifice, why did He make it so much of a hassle to show that it is fact? There are questions about how and why and wherefore, etc. etc. Challenges do not fall easily by the wayside.
His e-mail was his experience in overcoming doubts raised in his mind.
At least, that's what I think he was trying to say in his article. Without posting his exact commentary, that should give you adequate context for my reply, copied below.
--Wag--
------------------------------
I'm not 100% sure I get what you're trying to say, but I appreciate the effort. It seems almost that you're worried about the mechanism of establishing truth. Almost as if to say, "IF god could have done this at all, why leave any doubt about it?"
There are two kinds of people in the world (don't you just hate that statement?!!): One type questions everything, another type questions nothing. For some, it's good enough that the Bible says it. For others, no statement of any kind is good enough, it has to be seen with their own eyes. The two extremes are both faulty.
There are, of course, every degree of people in between. These are the ones with whom we take an interest.
These people are the reason we have science. People want to learn how things work. Sometimes, so much so, that they will buck the current trends in order to establish the facts and truths they discover. Galileo was an example of this. Prior to him, the general belief about the earth was that all planets and the sun and moon all orbited the earth. Galileo proved conclusively that in order for that to be true, the planets would have to have a kind of spiral orbit and even that concept was not fully workable. Finally, he broke the mold and discovered that the planets orbited the sun and the moon did, in fact, orbit the earth.
Pretty major accomplishment in his day but even more so because as a result, he was roundly persecuted by the church until later, others proved that he was correct. The church had to back off eventually but not before they went to great lengths to castigate Galileo, et al. I rather suspect that Galileo and his associates would have had to suggest that they were seeking to know the wonders of God's creation in order to avoid a righteous lynch mob but I digress a small degree!
So what is truth, really? How does "truth" compare to "fact?" Remember, Indiana Jones in, "Raiders of the Lost Ark?" He tells his archaeology class, "In archaeology, we deal with fact, not truth. If you want to talk about truth, the philosophy class is down the hall."
It's a salient point. Fact can be demonstrated with repeatable tests. For example, 2+2=4. A fact. We can test it over and over and over again and get the same answer. Every person on the planet can reproduce the result the exact same way every time. That's science. It doesn't always work, though. Science has it's failings, to be sure but it grows over time. More and more facts are discovered all the time because of the innate curiosities of scientists and their overwhelming drive to see things as they really are. Vision is increased over time and they can see more and more and more. That they often raise more questions in their answers is merely an assurance that science will continue to invfluence our lives
Truth, on the other hand, is centered very squarely on the foundation of Perception. How I see something may differ from how you see something. Given the same set of facts, we may both draw conclusions and opinions which differ mightily from each other. As we explain and write and speak of our thoughts on the subject, we may actually cause greater variation of thought as time progresses rather than actually coming to closer agreement on the topics. Othes who listen to us may choose sides or further muddy the waters with their own opinions. Two types of people, remember?!
Fact, you can't debate. Yes, there are fossils in the earth. Yes, they are hundreds of thousands or millions or even several billion years old. We can't debate that these are facts, nor can we dismiss them out of hand and ignore them. They are there in our faces. What we can still debate in the absence of additional facts, however, is how the fossils got there. That's where truth comes in. It may occur to me to believe that it's all evidence of evolution, in spite of missing facts. You, on the other hand, may see it as evidence of the might of god, also in spite of missing facts. We either argue about the truth or go our separate ways, content that we have the truth of the matter firmly in hand.
We both do exactly that, each convinced of the efficacy of our respective truths. However, the next blast of fact may dislodge our grip on truth fairly readily if we are open-minded. On the other hand, either of us my cling to that truth forever and shelter it, guarding it from all assault and variation if we, in fact, decide that no other outer influence may sway us from the truth. Dogma, blind chauvenism and unchallenged loyalty may prevent us from revising our truths when it is appropriate.
It goes both ways, though. At times, we may actually devoid ourselves of truth AND fact by failing to test the things in which we believe. That little collection of truths we hold in our hands. Granted, you can't always run around testing everything which comes our way against our individual handfuls of truths. We don't have time. However, we do have the catalog of truths in our minds and various instances of fact may raise questions about those truths if we allow them to do so. Nothing wrong with it either way. As we expose our truths to scrutiny, we find that healthy truths will flourish and grow and unhealthy truths can be easily discarded without further question.
A difficulty arises when someone approaches us with an assertion of truth. Is he using fact or truth to support his position? Often, truth is camoflaged as fact. It takes a degree of discernment to tell the difference. Avowals of, "He said, She said," or, "I saw it in an article," are sometimes used to support various assertions. Still, we can and should take the time to review and suggest that it be studied and discussed further in order to discover whether or not the statement is factual or not and whether or not the truth, OUR truth, needs to be redefined or refreshed.
Fact is discovered. Truth is created and destroyed.
Which brings us back to the beginnning of the thought. The Bible says it, is it true? Who cares? Is it factual, is the question. The original documents are available. Do the say what interpretation says they say? Yes, they do. Were they inspired by god or insanity? Were the stories faith-promoting folktales and legends or were they historically factual? Depending on the document, it could be a little of both. COULD be. Some of them, we don't know for sure. Some of them we do. Does a statement of fact make another unproven statement a fact also because the two are contained within the same cover? No. Each must stand on its own. Did Babylon conquer Israel about 600BC? Yup. Did they steal the ark of the covenant from the temple? We don't know.
Did Jesus get crucified? The bible says so. Is it fact? Does the secular record say? Josephus seems to think so, if I recall correctly. Was anyone resurrected from the dead? Facts outside the Bible do not support that assertion. We don't know if it's fact or not. Using the Bible as evidence, however, we can suggest it as truth to some and they will accept it as truth in their own hearts. Lacking supporting fact, they can use another agent of truth called "faith."
Faith can be a tricky thing. Grounded faith would propel us to act with the belief that something good will come of that act. Believing I can make a million bucks, I may act in faith by investing in the stock market and will do so with research and intelligence to maximize my chances of success.
There are those, however, who will cry, "Faith!" in prayer for the succor of the destitute and yet, they will not bring a sack of groceries to solve the immediate problem. By the same token, these same will sit in church regularly and frequently, all the while using faith to cover and protect their truths from the assault of fact. True faith would take truth and hold it to the candle of fact in order to assure oneself that the truth is well-grounded and can bear scrutiny.
I think lack of scrutiny is a failing among many, scientists and religionists both. Scientists, however, do have the means to test each other in many cases. Religionists . . . . What do they use to test each other? Assertions of fact? Very often not. Very often, only the Bible is used and the isolationist nature of the tome renders it too subjective for adequate testing. Opinion abounds as to beliefs, truths, religions and faiths. The claim that any one religion or sect could be a sole repository of truth becomes highly questionable at best and laughable at worst.
Who's going to win? The man who will ask questions. The man who will seek for answers at every possible turn. The man who is willing to understand that not everything WILL have an answer and that some truths must stand without scrutiny, simply because the truths cannot be tested against fact. It is the man who is willing to reassess his truths as often as possible and add new ones while disposing of those which are moldy and full of decay.
Truth is a good thing because it gives us a beautiful world in which to live outside the cold sterility of fact. Fact, however, is a good thing because it gives us the ability to check that the colors of our truths will still appease the eye.
If you believe in god and you search for answers from his good graces, you may find that there are missing facts. Until such time as god chooses to provide, it's possible to use faith to shore up truths in spite of absent facts. It may, however, cause you to doubt the efficacy of a god and that's okay. So long as the faiths used to support truths are not so exclusionary that we cannot see the light of additional information which may give us reason to conclude that perhaps we at least need to reassess the efficacy of our personal handful of truths.
At least, I think so.
:-)
--Wag--
His e-mail was his experience in overcoming doubts raised in his mind.
At least, that's what I think he was trying to say in his article. Without posting his exact commentary, that should give you adequate context for my reply, copied below.
--Wag--
------------------------------
I'm not 100% sure I get what you're trying to say, but I appreciate the effort. It seems almost that you're worried about the mechanism of establishing truth. Almost as if to say, "IF god could have done this at all, why leave any doubt about it?"
There are two kinds of people in the world (don't you just hate that statement?!!): One type questions everything, another type questions nothing. For some, it's good enough that the Bible says it. For others, no statement of any kind is good enough, it has to be seen with their own eyes. The two extremes are both faulty.
There are, of course, every degree of people in between. These are the ones with whom we take an interest.
These people are the reason we have science. People want to learn how things work. Sometimes, so much so, that they will buck the current trends in order to establish the facts and truths they discover. Galileo was an example of this. Prior to him, the general belief about the earth was that all planets and the sun and moon all orbited the earth. Galileo proved conclusively that in order for that to be true, the planets would have to have a kind of spiral orbit and even that concept was not fully workable. Finally, he broke the mold and discovered that the planets orbited the sun and the moon did, in fact, orbit the earth.
Pretty major accomplishment in his day but even more so because as a result, he was roundly persecuted by the church until later, others proved that he was correct. The church had to back off eventually but not before they went to great lengths to castigate Galileo, et al. I rather suspect that Galileo and his associates would have had to suggest that they were seeking to know the wonders of God's creation in order to avoid a righteous lynch mob but I digress a small degree!
So what is truth, really? How does "truth" compare to "fact?" Remember, Indiana Jones in, "Raiders of the Lost Ark?" He tells his archaeology class, "In archaeology, we deal with fact, not truth. If you want to talk about truth, the philosophy class is down the hall."
It's a salient point. Fact can be demonstrated with repeatable tests. For example, 2+2=4. A fact. We can test it over and over and over again and get the same answer. Every person on the planet can reproduce the result the exact same way every time. That's science. It doesn't always work, though. Science has it's failings, to be sure but it grows over time. More and more facts are discovered all the time because of the innate curiosities of scientists and their overwhelming drive to see things as they really are. Vision is increased over time and they can see more and more and more. That they often raise more questions in their answers is merely an assurance that science will continue to invfluence our lives
Truth, on the other hand, is centered very squarely on the foundation of Perception. How I see something may differ from how you see something. Given the same set of facts, we may both draw conclusions and opinions which differ mightily from each other. As we explain and write and speak of our thoughts on the subject, we may actually cause greater variation of thought as time progresses rather than actually coming to closer agreement on the topics. Othes who listen to us may choose sides or further muddy the waters with their own opinions. Two types of people, remember?!
Fact, you can't debate. Yes, there are fossils in the earth. Yes, they are hundreds of thousands or millions or even several billion years old. We can't debate that these are facts, nor can we dismiss them out of hand and ignore them. They are there in our faces. What we can still debate in the absence of additional facts, however, is how the fossils got there. That's where truth comes in. It may occur to me to believe that it's all evidence of evolution, in spite of missing facts. You, on the other hand, may see it as evidence of the might of god, also in spite of missing facts. We either argue about the truth or go our separate ways, content that we have the truth of the matter firmly in hand.
We both do exactly that, each convinced of the efficacy of our respective truths. However, the next blast of fact may dislodge our grip on truth fairly readily if we are open-minded. On the other hand, either of us my cling to that truth forever and shelter it, guarding it from all assault and variation if we, in fact, decide that no other outer influence may sway us from the truth. Dogma, blind chauvenism and unchallenged loyalty may prevent us from revising our truths when it is appropriate.
It goes both ways, though. At times, we may actually devoid ourselves of truth AND fact by failing to test the things in which we believe. That little collection of truths we hold in our hands. Granted, you can't always run around testing everything which comes our way against our individual handfuls of truths. We don't have time. However, we do have the catalog of truths in our minds and various instances of fact may raise questions about those truths if we allow them to do so. Nothing wrong with it either way. As we expose our truths to scrutiny, we find that healthy truths will flourish and grow and unhealthy truths can be easily discarded without further question.
A difficulty arises when someone approaches us with an assertion of truth. Is he using fact or truth to support his position? Often, truth is camoflaged as fact. It takes a degree of discernment to tell the difference. Avowals of, "He said, She said," or, "I saw it in an article," are sometimes used to support various assertions. Still, we can and should take the time to review and suggest that it be studied and discussed further in order to discover whether or not the statement is factual or not and whether or not the truth, OUR truth, needs to be redefined or refreshed.
Fact is discovered. Truth is created and destroyed.
Which brings us back to the beginnning of the thought. The Bible says it, is it true? Who cares? Is it factual, is the question. The original documents are available. Do the say what interpretation says they say? Yes, they do. Were they inspired by god or insanity? Were the stories faith-promoting folktales and legends or were they historically factual? Depending on the document, it could be a little of both. COULD be. Some of them, we don't know for sure. Some of them we do. Does a statement of fact make another unproven statement a fact also because the two are contained within the same cover? No. Each must stand on its own. Did Babylon conquer Israel about 600BC? Yup. Did they steal the ark of the covenant from the temple? We don't know.
Did Jesus get crucified? The bible says so. Is it fact? Does the secular record say? Josephus seems to think so, if I recall correctly. Was anyone resurrected from the dead? Facts outside the Bible do not support that assertion. We don't know if it's fact or not. Using the Bible as evidence, however, we can suggest it as truth to some and they will accept it as truth in their own hearts. Lacking supporting fact, they can use another agent of truth called "faith."
Faith can be a tricky thing. Grounded faith would propel us to act with the belief that something good will come of that act. Believing I can make a million bucks, I may act in faith by investing in the stock market and will do so with research and intelligence to maximize my chances of success.
There are those, however, who will cry, "Faith!" in prayer for the succor of the destitute and yet, they will not bring a sack of groceries to solve the immediate problem. By the same token, these same will sit in church regularly and frequently, all the while using faith to cover and protect their truths from the assault of fact. True faith would take truth and hold it to the candle of fact in order to assure oneself that the truth is well-grounded and can bear scrutiny.
I think lack of scrutiny is a failing among many, scientists and religionists both. Scientists, however, do have the means to test each other in many cases. Religionists . . . . What do they use to test each other? Assertions of fact? Very often not. Very often, only the Bible is used and the isolationist nature of the tome renders it too subjective for adequate testing. Opinion abounds as to beliefs, truths, religions and faiths. The claim that any one religion or sect could be a sole repository of truth becomes highly questionable at best and laughable at worst.
Who's going to win? The man who will ask questions. The man who will seek for answers at every possible turn. The man who is willing to understand that not everything WILL have an answer and that some truths must stand without scrutiny, simply because the truths cannot be tested against fact. It is the man who is willing to reassess his truths as often as possible and add new ones while disposing of those which are moldy and full of decay.
Truth is a good thing because it gives us a beautiful world in which to live outside the cold sterility of fact. Fact, however, is a good thing because it gives us the ability to check that the colors of our truths will still appease the eye.
If you believe in god and you search for answers from his good graces, you may find that there are missing facts. Until such time as god chooses to provide, it's possible to use faith to shore up truths in spite of absent facts. It may, however, cause you to doubt the efficacy of a god and that's okay. So long as the faiths used to support truths are not so exclusionary that we cannot see the light of additional information which may give us reason to conclude that perhaps we at least need to reassess the efficacy of our personal handful of truths.
At least, I think so.
:-)
--Wag--
Thursday, October 19, 2006
Prejudicial voting
The e-mail below came to me the other day. I gave the reply following.
--Wag--
Original e-mail:
Christians Voting for Cultists?
By Richard Engle, President NFRA
Can a Christian vote for someone who is a member of a cult? As the elections of 2006 are upon us many Christians face a dilemma. Do they vote for a member of a church that they consider a cult or do they vote for someone who is a member of a denomination that is widely accepted?
In Oklahoma the incumbent Governor, Brad Henry, is officially Baptist but is pro-abortion, pro-gambling, and pro-corrupt contracts with tribal bosses. The Republican challenger, Congressman Ernest Istook, is pro-life, against expansion of gambling, and opposes the corrupt contracts. He is also a Mormon.
Go to any Christian bookstore and look for books about cults and you will find that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are the most commonly referenced cults with others adding Seventh Day Adventists, and the Worldwide Church of God or the United Pentecostals.
The first thing that must be done is to define a cult. Many dictionaries define cult as nothing more than a sect. By such definition each and every denomination would be counted as a cult. As such the negative connotation would be greatly diminished. What is ordinarily intended is a religious group that significantly deviates from the authentic/original. By such definition the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox might consider all Protestants to be cultists.
The contemporary American understanding of what is and isn't a cult stems from the Fundamentalist movement. Fundamentalism, far from being a 'lock step' religious orthodoxy, was actually a movement towards ecumenicism. The premise being that any 'true' Christian may well fellowship with any other despite the denomination if they held to the 'fundamentals of the faith'. Any group that denied these fundamentals was something less than, or other than Christian.
Fundamentalists hold to 'five fundamentals of the faith' but oddly they identify six. They are the Bible as inspired and inerrant, the deity of Christ, the Virgin Birth, Christ's substitutionary death, Christ's resurrection, and the Second Coming. In some references the deity of Christ and the Virgin Birth are combined as one and in others the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ are combined. Any church that upholds these without compromise could well consider itself a fundamentalist church.
The liberal media has portrayed fundamentalism as a theology that allows for no variation whatsoever and one that condemns all who hold to any such variation to hell. Reality is that fundamentalists disagree among themselves on any number of theological issues other than the five (six) and even on issues that approach them such as details regarding the Second Coming.
What Constitutes a Cult?
Well, a cult of Christianity must under any definition be a variation from Christianity. Buddhism, for example, is a completely separate religion. Buddhists hold to a very distinct understanding of religious ideals including morality. A Christian voter may well wish to have persons in public office who agree with their beliefs and values. Preferring Christians in elective positions is completely understandable. What happens if one candidate claims Christianity but has public policy positions that are anathema to Christians? America faced this question when Jimmy Carter faced reelection. Carter broadly proclaimed his 'born again' beliefs but supported abortion on demand. Governor Brad Henry can be compared to Carter's
inconsistencies on several fronts.
Should we vote for a Mormon?
All of us attend or are members of churches that we each believe to be the best available. If the church across the street were better we would be there! Yet when we vote we are faced with choosing among candidates that seldom hold to our own exact theological positions. Perhaps we could set aside the question of a candidate's eternal status and seek to understand his political positions and his moral standards. Without a biblically based moral ethic it is difficult to trust that the candidate will govern in accordance with his promises.
For the purposes of public policy and how religion impacts such, I would suggest that any who accept the moral standards of the Bible (Old Testament, New Testament, or both) have a common cause. Observant Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Mormons, and all others who so revere the scriptures are in the same boat and need to work together on matters of public policy. We may disagree on matters eternal but can and should agree on things temporal.
Anyone who holds to a Biblical ethical standard is helpful in our conservative cause. I can, will, and have voted for persons who are Mormons. I will be voting for one for Governor of Oklahoma. I know the man well and trust he would be one of the best Governors in our history. I would not knowingly vote for an atheist and don't know of a Hindu or Buddhist that I could support. Why? Because I don't trust that they hold to the same basic moral standards. If I can't trust that they understand good and evil as I do then I cannot trust them with the public purse.
Let us draw a line of distinction that works in public policy. Realize that a Biblical ethic is what we need and we (or more likely, God) can sort out the rest later.
My response:
Very interesting, G.
Among other things, a cult is a group which struggles to eliminates a person's ability or willingness to think for himself. That includes Amway, The Boy Scouts, American patriotism (I am willingly guilty here) and various churches, companies and other types of organizations. My opinion, of course, but its toehold is planted firmly in the writings of Steven Hassan. VERY good reading, especially his second book, "Releasing the Bonds." But I digress.
That a person could be prejudicial in voting is just as good a study as any other activity wherein prejudice is practiced. The fact is, only ONE criteria need be present to cast a valid vote: Can the person do the job with integrity and compentence?
Having said that, it is a fact that Mormons typically have a religious agenda that supercedes everything else in their lives, including their own families. I will suggest that it would not be easy to find an avowed Mormon who is not guided by their dogmas so it would be difficult to research and figure this one out case by case. The easy thing would be to vote against a Mormon, even though there is always the possibility that you would be voting for a lesser qualified candidate or even a reprobate. How would you feel to know that a Mormon political official claims that his god is guiding his hand?
I'm not defending Mormons here. In fact, plug any religious cult name in its place and the discussion is identical in every way. It is merely a defense of the fact that voting is a serious issue which should not be relegated to the realm of thoughtless dogma and prejudice.
Atheists might prove to be a special case but again, it's no slam dunk to make the decision not to vote for an atheist. Can the guy handle the business of his office or not? Will he do so with integrity? I know plenty of atheists I would trust far more than some errant Christians we have seen over the years but as we all know, there are exceptions present in every group of people, either way, good or bad. Again, I'm not defending atheists, per se, although the repetition here might make it seem so. The stark comparison appeared to give the discussion greater clarity.
It boils down to several very important conceptual questions, one of which is, "How lazy are you willing to be in your voting?"
--Wag--
Original e-mail:
Christians Voting for Cultists?
By Richard Engle, President NFRA
Can a Christian vote for someone who is a member of a cult? As the elections of 2006 are upon us many Christians face a dilemma. Do they vote for a member of a church that they consider a cult or do they vote for someone who is a member of a denomination that is widely accepted?
In Oklahoma the incumbent Governor, Brad Henry, is officially Baptist but is pro-abortion, pro-gambling, and pro-corrupt contracts with tribal bosses. The Republican challenger, Congressman Ernest Istook, is pro-life, against expansion of gambling, and opposes the corrupt contracts. He is also a Mormon.
Go to any Christian bookstore and look for books about cults and you will find that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are the most commonly referenced cults with others adding Seventh Day Adventists, and the Worldwide Church of God or the United Pentecostals.
The first thing that must be done is to define a cult. Many dictionaries define cult as nothing more than a sect. By such definition each and every denomination would be counted as a cult. As such the negative connotation would be greatly diminished. What is ordinarily intended is a religious group that significantly deviates from the authentic/original. By such definition the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox might consider all Protestants to be cultists.
The contemporary American understanding of what is and isn't a cult stems from the Fundamentalist movement. Fundamentalism, far from being a 'lock step' religious orthodoxy, was actually a movement towards ecumenicism. The premise being that any 'true' Christian may well fellowship with any other despite the denomination if they held to the 'fundamentals of the faith'. Any group that denied these fundamentals was something less than, or other than Christian.
Fundamentalists hold to 'five fundamentals of the faith' but oddly they identify six. They are the Bible as inspired and inerrant, the deity of Christ, the Virgin Birth, Christ's substitutionary death, Christ's resurrection, and the Second Coming. In some references the deity of Christ and the Virgin Birth are combined as one and in others the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ are combined. Any church that upholds these without compromise could well consider itself a fundamentalist church.
The liberal media has portrayed fundamentalism as a theology that allows for no variation whatsoever and one that condemns all who hold to any such variation to hell. Reality is that fundamentalists disagree among themselves on any number of theological issues other than the five (six) and even on issues that approach them such as details regarding the Second Coming.
What Constitutes a Cult?
Well, a cult of Christianity must under any definition be a variation from Christianity. Buddhism, for example, is a completely separate religion. Buddhists hold to a very distinct understanding of religious ideals including morality. A Christian voter may well wish to have persons in public office who agree with their beliefs and values. Preferring Christians in elective positions is completely understandable. What happens if one candidate claims Christianity but has public policy positions that are anathema to Christians? America faced this question when Jimmy Carter faced reelection. Carter broadly proclaimed his 'born again' beliefs but supported abortion on demand. Governor Brad Henry can be compared to Carter's
inconsistencies on several fronts.
Should we vote for a Mormon?
All of us attend or are members of churches that we each believe to be the best available. If the church across the street were better we would be there! Yet when we vote we are faced with choosing among candidates that seldom hold to our own exact theological positions. Perhaps we could set aside the question of a candidate's eternal status and seek to understand his political positions and his moral standards. Without a biblically based moral ethic it is difficult to trust that the candidate will govern in accordance with his promises.
For the purposes of public policy and how religion impacts such, I would suggest that any who accept the moral standards of the Bible (Old Testament, New Testament, or both) have a common cause. Observant Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Mormons, and all others who so revere the scriptures are in the same boat and need to work together on matters of public policy. We may disagree on matters eternal but can and should agree on things temporal.
Anyone who holds to a Biblical ethical standard is helpful in our conservative cause. I can, will, and have voted for persons who are Mormons. I will be voting for one for Governor of Oklahoma. I know the man well and trust he would be one of the best Governors in our history. I would not knowingly vote for an atheist and don't know of a Hindu or Buddhist that I could support. Why? Because I don't trust that they hold to the same basic moral standards. If I can't trust that they understand good and evil as I do then I cannot trust them with the public purse.
Let us draw a line of distinction that works in public policy. Realize that a Biblical ethic is what we need and we (or more likely, God) can sort out the rest later.
My response:
Very interesting, G.
Among other things, a cult is a group which struggles to eliminates a person's ability or willingness to think for himself. That includes Amway, The Boy Scouts, American patriotism (I am willingly guilty here) and various churches, companies and other types of organizations. My opinion, of course, but its toehold is planted firmly in the writings of Steven Hassan. VERY good reading, especially his second book, "Releasing the Bonds." But I digress.
That a person could be prejudicial in voting is just as good a study as any other activity wherein prejudice is practiced. The fact is, only ONE criteria need be present to cast a valid vote: Can the person do the job with integrity and compentence?
Having said that, it is a fact that Mormons typically have a religious agenda that supercedes everything else in their lives, including their own families. I will suggest that it would not be easy to find an avowed Mormon who is not guided by their dogmas so it would be difficult to research and figure this one out case by case. The easy thing would be to vote against a Mormon, even though there is always the possibility that you would be voting for a lesser qualified candidate or even a reprobate. How would you feel to know that a Mormon political official claims that his god is guiding his hand?
I'm not defending Mormons here. In fact, plug any religious cult name in its place and the discussion is identical in every way. It is merely a defense of the fact that voting is a serious issue which should not be relegated to the realm of thoughtless dogma and prejudice.
Atheists might prove to be a special case but again, it's no slam dunk to make the decision not to vote for an atheist. Can the guy handle the business of his office or not? Will he do so with integrity? I know plenty of atheists I would trust far more than some errant Christians we have seen over the years but as we all know, there are exceptions present in every group of people, either way, good or bad. Again, I'm not defending atheists, per se, although the repetition here might make it seem so. The stark comparison appeared to give the discussion greater clarity.
It boils down to several very important conceptual questions, one of which is, "How lazy are you willing to be in your voting?"
Monday, May 29, 2006
Food for thought?
I received this from a friend today. It IS thought-provoking. The question is, "How do we preserve a nation AND preserve individuality and personal freedom?" I'm sure you've all read Huxley's book, "Brave New World," but have you read his recap on it: "Brave New World: Revisited?" The first was entertainment. The second is chilling. In and of itself, it's frightening. In view of our current social climate, it's terrifying.
We will ultimately have a choice to make:
1. Country
2. Self
Which do YOU love more?
I post the following to stimulate thought. I don't necessarily endorse or contend with the article.
My only other comment about it is that we live in a time when people desire divisiveness more than they desire unity. Keep that thought in mind as you read this.
--Wag--
---------------------
Food for THOUGHT?
We know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by the name of Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal - was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.
Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that an autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.
Here is how they do it," Lamm said. "First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures.
It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of bilingual and bicultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."
Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences, I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.
Third, "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance, but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together." Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."
"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."
"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."
"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship, and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other -- that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic Games. A common enemy, Persia, threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" - (From many, one.) In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we will balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."
"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century -- that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion in and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."
In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally, he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."
There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Even barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World. America - take note of California and other states -- to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength."
Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble! and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.
---------------------
Some last comments: The greatest strength of any economy is it's people. The article above suggests that diversity and divisionism are evils to be avoided. That is partly true. However, it would be equally problematic to be isolationist and avoid diversity altogether. A balance of the two must be maintained.
Is our problem diversity and tolerance as the article above suggests or is it hatred of others? If your black/white/hispanic/Chinese/Muslim/Indian neighbor is attacked will you rise up to that person's defense? Will you let that neighbor fall prey instead of lending your strength to him? Would he do it for you? What if his attacker were of your race not his? His race, not yours?
What is your choice?
--Wag--
We will ultimately have a choice to make:
1. Country
2. Self
Which do YOU love more?
I post the following to stimulate thought. I don't necessarily endorse or contend with the article.
My only other comment about it is that we live in a time when people desire divisiveness more than they desire unity. Keep that thought in mind as you read this.
--Wag--
---------------------
Food for THOUGHT?
We know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by the name of Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal - was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.
Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that an autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.
Here is how they do it," Lamm said. "First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures.
It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of bilingual and bicultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."
Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences, I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.
Third, "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance, but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together." Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."
"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."
"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."
"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship, and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other -- that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic Games. A common enemy, Persia, threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" - (From many, one.) In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we will balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."
"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century -- that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion in and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."
In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally, he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."
There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Even barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World. America - take note of California and other states -- to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength."
Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble! and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.
---------------------
Some last comments: The greatest strength of any economy is it's people. The article above suggests that diversity and divisionism are evils to be avoided. That is partly true. However, it would be equally problematic to be isolationist and avoid diversity altogether. A balance of the two must be maintained.
Is our problem diversity and tolerance as the article above suggests or is it hatred of others? If your black/white/hispanic/Chinese/Muslim/Indian neighbor is attacked will you rise up to that person's defense? Will you let that neighbor fall prey instead of lending your strength to him? Would he do it for you? What if his attacker were of your race not his? His race, not yours?
What is your choice?
--Wag--
Friday, May 12, 2006
A couple of cool sites
As president of The Exmormon Foundation (http://www.exmormonfoundation.org) I get the privilege of having ideas passed along to me which are intriguing, to say the least.
Recently, I received an e-mail from a moderator at the Exmormon Forums. It's run by a host named Infymus who I don't know yet. I say, "yet," because I hope to get to know him at some point in the near future. As a matter of fact, there's a good possibility I already know who he is! Small electronic world out there.
But while Exmormon Forums is intriguing and worthwhile, his other site, The Mormon Curtain, is even more fascinating. I'd love to have my blogs be even a percent as comprehensive as his is.
Maybe Infymus is a her?
--Wag--
Recently, I received an e-mail from a moderator at the Exmormon Forums. It's run by a host named Infymus who I don't know yet. I say, "yet," because I hope to get to know him at some point in the near future. As a matter of fact, there's a good possibility I already know who he is! Small electronic world out there.
But while Exmormon Forums is intriguing and worthwhile, his other site, The Mormon Curtain, is even more fascinating. I'd love to have my blogs be even a percent as comprehensive as his is.
Maybe Infymus is a her?
--Wag--
Saturday, May 06, 2006
Thursday, March 30, 2006
The rights of religion
Many of you have seen this before. It was spread all over the internet just after the human tragedy at Columbine. It was posted yesterday on a board I frequent and it inspired some new thought, included after the text.
-----------------Begin-----------------
DARRELL SCOTT TESTIMONY
Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:
"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent.
I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. "I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today:
Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!
"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and reek havoc. Spiritual presence were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws.
"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.
"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right!
I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first
stone!
My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
-----------------End-----------------
My comments:
I do not believe in prayer, of course. Anyone who reads below should be able to figure that out quite easily. However, I adamantly believe in people's right to take comfort in their own sanctuary, physical or mental. If that includes prayer to their respective deity, who am I to wish to deny it to them? Legislating morality is insane. Robbing people of their ability to pray in any place for any reason is insane. I may be an atheist but I don't understand atheists' mentality for denying people their religious freedom. Indeed, many atheists have become that which they vehemently criticize. It's divisive and destructive to the fibrous bonds which have held this country together for 220+ years. It's not at all about who, how, where or what you worship. It's about your freedom to do so. THAT is what brought our country together and has held it together for so long.
I find it nearly calamitous that there are those who believe we should create any law restricting religious practices in publicly-owned places. Religion does a LOT of good in this world, probably moreso than any other type of organization that exists. More than government, that's for sure. Church welfare programs kick the hell out of gov't instituted welfare systems and guess what? Nearly ZERO fraud or graft!
At the very least, religion has done so much good for this country they deserve the right to pray when and wherever they wish.
--Wag--
P.S. Don't think I sympathize with religious teachings. I do not. But I do subscribe to the idea that tolerance is a virtue and kindness to others a necessity.
-----------------Begin-----------------
DARRELL SCOTT TESTIMONY
Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:
"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent.
I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. "I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today:
Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!
"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and reek havoc. Spiritual presence were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws.
"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.
"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right!
I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first
stone!
My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
-----------------End-----------------
My comments:
I do not believe in prayer, of course. Anyone who reads below should be able to figure that out quite easily. However, I adamantly believe in people's right to take comfort in their own sanctuary, physical or mental. If that includes prayer to their respective deity, who am I to wish to deny it to them? Legislating morality is insane. Robbing people of their ability to pray in any place for any reason is insane. I may be an atheist but I don't understand atheists' mentality for denying people their religious freedom. Indeed, many atheists have become that which they vehemently criticize. It's divisive and destructive to the fibrous bonds which have held this country together for 220+ years. It's not at all about who, how, where or what you worship. It's about your freedom to do so. THAT is what brought our country together and has held it together for so long.
I find it nearly calamitous that there are those who believe we should create any law restricting religious practices in publicly-owned places. Religion does a LOT of good in this world, probably moreso than any other type of organization that exists. More than government, that's for sure. Church welfare programs kick the hell out of gov't instituted welfare systems and guess what? Nearly ZERO fraud or graft!
At the very least, religion has done so much good for this country they deserve the right to pray when and wherever they wish.
--Wag--
P.S. Don't think I sympathize with religious teachings. I do not. But I do subscribe to the idea that tolerance is a virtue and kindness to others a necessity.
Thursday, March 16, 2006
Punished by the Laws of Insanity!
Can you be punished for spelling it right?
What if you send an e-mail to someone very important? A top customer, a prospective employer, a potential business partner or venture capitalist. You take the time to look up various words in the dictionary to be sure they are spelled correctly.
However, the recipient, being a little less well-educated or less diligent than you, reads your e-mail and wrongly decides that you've spelled those words wrong. He deletes your e-mail, vowing never to associate with you again because you, "can't spell!" He moves on, ignorant of his error (and your diligence and care while writing) and you waste a few more contact attempts on the guy, never knowing why he is no longer interested in speaking with you.
Tough situation.
Remember David Howard? He was that guy in Washington, D.C. a few years ago who used the word, "niggardly" and was forced to resign because of it. Someone or several someones got bent out of shape because they thought he was uttering a racial epithet. Much ado was made and some called for his resignation which he eventually gave. Columnist Tony Snow said Howard had been forced to apologize for the ignorance of others.
Painfully true.
Of course, these particular uneducated idiots, by getting all up in arms about it, revealed their own ignorance and broadcast it all over creation. There have been all kinds of remarks made about how Howard, "should have known," that the word could be misconstrued by people who heard it and Howard himself actually apologized for it. Indeed, it's said in such a way as to assume that Howard is the one who was the imbecile for using the term. Kind of like attacking the rape victim for the assault.
Howard lost his job to fools. Maybe he shouldn't have given in but I suppose he didn't want to perpetuate his association with people too stupid to understand a simple word. On the other hand, something else was lost in the process: Ignorance, ineptitude and stupidity were validated as being okay. Ignorance was glorified and intelligence was vilified.
It's the same as the schoolyard bully who harasses the nerd on the playground in third through tenth grades because he got an 'A' in English class. Why is it that excellence is so often downplayed while stupidity is heralded? Ever hear of Outcome Based Education? It ranks (deliberate use of the term) right up there with another rank program called Affirmative Action.
I don't think the internet is to blame for the Howard fiasco, however, it has had a hand in perpetuating ignorance alongside education. Especially when it comes to things like spelling and other word craft. I'm sure many of you have encountered enough spelling and grammar errors in your daily web perusals to make you go half insane. I've even been in the middle of writing some diatribe or other and found myself typing "site" instead of "sight" and vice-versa. Someone I respect and admire once pointed out that I had used "their" when I should have used "they're." Maddening, of course.
For me, the problem is one of having seen the words misspelled so often that I've become acclimated to seeing them written incorrectly. When I see someone else's spelling and grammar errors, I know what the guy meant and castigating him for his goof just isn't a big deal in many cases. Too time consuming at the very least. Either that, or the error is on Yahoo or some other big name news service and who do you contact over there?
What if you send an e-mail to a major supplier overseas and their primary language is not English? I could, at this juncture, make a switch to suggesting that knowing your audience would be wise. If you use big words, long sentences and English slang and jargon, you're just begging for trouble. If your contact doesn't understand English very well and you know it, tone it down for them so you don't force them to go looking everything up in their English/native language dictionary, cursing you all the while!
Granted, we all drop the occasional typo here and there. There are plenty in my blog which I haven't caught. Hopefully, I'll get to them some day. In spite of the potential hypocrisy inherent in writing this little blurb, the fact remains: The language is getting slaughtered out there. And it's killing us.
--Wag--
What if you send an e-mail to someone very important? A top customer, a prospective employer, a potential business partner or venture capitalist. You take the time to look up various words in the dictionary to be sure they are spelled correctly.
However, the recipient, being a little less well-educated or less diligent than you, reads your e-mail and wrongly decides that you've spelled those words wrong. He deletes your e-mail, vowing never to associate with you again because you, "can't spell!" He moves on, ignorant of his error (and your diligence and care while writing) and you waste a few more contact attempts on the guy, never knowing why he is no longer interested in speaking with you.
Tough situation.
Remember David Howard? He was that guy in Washington, D.C. a few years ago who used the word, "niggardly" and was forced to resign because of it. Someone or several someones got bent out of shape because they thought he was uttering a racial epithet. Much ado was made and some called for his resignation which he eventually gave. Columnist Tony Snow said Howard had been forced to apologize for the ignorance of others.
Painfully true.
Of course, these particular uneducated idiots, by getting all up in arms about it, revealed their own ignorance and broadcast it all over creation. There have been all kinds of remarks made about how Howard, "should have known," that the word could be misconstrued by people who heard it and Howard himself actually apologized for it. Indeed, it's said in such a way as to assume that Howard is the one who was the imbecile for using the term. Kind of like attacking the rape victim for the assault.
Howard lost his job to fools. Maybe he shouldn't have given in but I suppose he didn't want to perpetuate his association with people too stupid to understand a simple word. On the other hand, something else was lost in the process: Ignorance, ineptitude and stupidity were validated as being okay. Ignorance was glorified and intelligence was vilified.
It's the same as the schoolyard bully who harasses the nerd on the playground in third through tenth grades because he got an 'A' in English class. Why is it that excellence is so often downplayed while stupidity is heralded? Ever hear of Outcome Based Education? It ranks (deliberate use of the term) right up there with another rank program called Affirmative Action.
I don't think the internet is to blame for the Howard fiasco, however, it has had a hand in perpetuating ignorance alongside education. Especially when it comes to things like spelling and other word craft. I'm sure many of you have encountered enough spelling and grammar errors in your daily web perusals to make you go half insane. I've even been in the middle of writing some diatribe or other and found myself typing "site" instead of "sight" and vice-versa. Someone I respect and admire once pointed out that I had used "their" when I should have used "they're." Maddening, of course.
For me, the problem is one of having seen the words misspelled so often that I've become acclimated to seeing them written incorrectly. When I see someone else's spelling and grammar errors, I know what the guy meant and castigating him for his goof just isn't a big deal in many cases. Too time consuming at the very least. Either that, or the error is on Yahoo or some other big name news service and who do you contact over there?
What if you send an e-mail to a major supplier overseas and their primary language is not English? I could, at this juncture, make a switch to suggesting that knowing your audience would be wise. If you use big words, long sentences and English slang and jargon, you're just begging for trouble. If your contact doesn't understand English very well and you know it, tone it down for them so you don't force them to go looking everything up in their English/native language dictionary, cursing you all the while!
Granted, we all drop the occasional typo here and there. There are plenty in my blog which I haven't caught. Hopefully, I'll get to them some day. In spite of the potential hypocrisy inherent in writing this little blurb, the fact remains: The language is getting slaughtered out there. And it's killing us.
--Wag--
Friday, March 10, 2006
A Soldier's Plea
I've made no secret of the fact that I'm an atheist so a plea for prayer is meaningless to me in and of itself. However, the trials and concerns of the soldiers in our military are very real, regardless of the religious focus of this e-mail. Some things really tear at your heart, just 'cause we're all human together.
Pray if you must but I suggest, rather, that if you have opportunity to do so, send care packages, "adopt" a military family here at home and take care of their daily needs. Regardless of any debate about whether or not prayer or religion have any power, there can be no doubt whatsoever that rolling up your sleeves and going to work actually DOES have power. It doesn't even always take money. Mostly just your time. You'll see what I mean if you read this e-mail below.
I submit it with no edits.
--Wag--
------------------Original e-mail----------------
Hello Everyone,
I miss you all! I am ALIVE AND WELL! I do have to say AGAIN, that God is Awesome. He offers so much Amazing Graze to us all. I don't know why we doubt.
Well, I am healthy and doing just fine. I do miss my wife and my boy.
The reason for this email is to ask for a PRAYER REQUEST in detail for every soldier in harms way. It will be a VERY long email. It's up to you now to stop or read on. If you read on, I want to make you think and to do just what I ask in the end.
I hope not to upset you with this email. I just wanted to give you something directly to be praying for when you do pray for the troops. I have sat down with my troops and jotted down all types of prayer requests and came up with all down to reality prayer requests.
If you don't believe in prayer or don't believe in God, then this email should shed some light on what soldiers deal with everyday for you.
It's not all about guns and killing, blood and gore.
I hear from everyone back home and they tell me that they have me and all the troops in their prayers. BUT do some actually mean it? Or do they just say it out of repetitiveness and saying the right thing to a soldier in a war? Do some really know how to pray? Or do you know what to pray for?
Well, I want to challenge you today to pray extra hard now for these soldiers and I. I am one, but their are many, many soldier's and civilian contractor's here in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait and around the world serving our Great Country of the United States.
When you pray for the troops,...what do you pray for FOR THEM? Other than safety from harms way. It not all about killing and death here.
I see soldiers that are looking for something!
They walk around with sad faces and anger attitudes. They are lost people!
Soldiers are searching for God, but they don't know that.
Soldiers are suffering from boredom. The ever famous, "Hurry up and Wait".
Soldiers are suffering from loneliness, being away from home. Feeling like we are in prison on these camps. We can't just get up, jump in the car and drive down to the mall. We can't go to the park and play on the swings with our kids. We can't order pizza and have it delivered. It's like we are in prison. Locked up in jail. We can't go down town to the watch the NBA game or the NFL game in the stadium. And for me, I can't go to the NASCAR Races.
Soldiers are suffering from the addiction to pornography.
Soldiers are suffering from the addition of masturbation.
Soldiers talk constantly about the opposite sex.
Soldiers are influenced by music that sings about violence and killing.
Soldiers are spending too much money on nothing. Shopping the Internet and ordering stuff to satisfy their emptiness.
Soldiers have credit card bills, car payments, mortgage payment, and other bills that is hard to take care of just because soldiers are a half a world away.
Soldiers are wanting to stop smoking but the addiction and stress of war have got them locked in it's grasp.
Soldiers are having alcohol with drawls here. Pray that they become sober out of this. Having alcohol is prohibited for the soldier here in war. But the build up gets out of hand, a soldier returns home for leave or redeployment and dies from drunk driving. What a story that is.....a soldier survives war but dies right at home by a head on car accident.
Soldiers have bad swearing habits. The use of bad language is used in every other word of speech.
Soldiers have goals that they want to accomplish.
Soldiers are wanting to lose weight.
Soldiers want to break the addiction to drinking.
Soldiers battle the unspoken reality of prejudice.
Soldiers battle the unspoken thoughts of female leadership vs. male leadership.
Soldiers argue about religion.
I have a soldier who is reading a book on Satanic Verses. Pray for him!
Married Soldiers are in the middle of adultery.
Soldiers wondering if their husbands or wives are being faithful while they are away serving their country.
Single soldiers are looking for love.
Soldiers are going through divorce.
Soldiers are loosing their children in child custody battles because they are here in Iraq. The court Judges in the states see that soldiers are not at home supporting their kids and for that reason their kids are taken from them.
Most soldiers are young kids right out of high school, that haven't even experienced life as you know it in the adult world of America. Teenager soldiers, right now, all they know is war! These experiences could effect their out look on life when they return home.
Pray for our families back in the states.
I ask for prayers for the Iraqi people! Their families!
Pray for the Iraqi citizens who have stepped up and are becoming Iraqi police or Iraqi Army soldiers. They endure much also, trying to take over the roles of running their own country and bringing security to their own families.
Praying for our enemy, the insurgents.
Pray for our fear of I.E.D.'s.
Pray for the reality of incoming mortar rounds.
Worried about RPG's when flying in Helicopters.
Wondering about V.B.I.E.D.'s when in traffic in local towns and villages.
Thinking that the next insurgent with a B.B.I.E.D.'s doesn't get close to you.
Pray for every day missions of soldiers as they go outside the wire and into the view of the enemy. Pray for the troops that they continue to focus on the mission and not be distracted with all of these mentioned things in this email that I have addressed.
Pray for Commanders and high ranking leaders, that they are the ones making life threatening decisions. Having to send out the troops to carry out the mission.
Pray for the mechanics, so they may keep the trucks and tanks running good while out on missions or behind enemy lines.
Pray for the weather. Soldiers deal with extreme heat and cold. We work right through the rain and the dust storms.
Pray for the health of every soldier. Pray that sickness is not hindering the individual from doing his or her mission.
Pray for each soldier that carries a weapon. Friendly Fire! Friendly fire is something that happens when another U.S. soldier accidentally fires off a round and it hit another U.S. soldier. Either he or she is injured or in some cases, even killed by a stray bullet.
We work during the holidays and weekends when you all back home are enjoying the day off to be with family or go to the movies.
Pray for rest, for the soldier. He or she puts in long hours and keeps going.
Soldiers are up early again the next day exercising and getting ready for another day of business.
Pray for our Leader's in Washington. Pray for them even though you don't support their decisions.
We as soldiers do our jobs even when politicians fight among themselves.
We soldiers do our jobs even when U.S. citizens protest what we do here.
If you don't support this war or think that this war is worth being here, think about this,....with the Iraq war, it has draw terrorist to Iraq and away from the United States. This war keeps you safer even more there in the U.S. It draws the attention here and away from you.
Pray for the soldiers attending their fellow soldier's memorial services.
At home, a U.S. civilian will probably attend a memorial service for a family member or friend who had passed away of natural causes or an accident, maybe every three years.
Here, a soldier will attend more than he or she would want to, in his or her entire life time. The memorial service would be of a friend who became family, who became a close brother or sister during this war.
Pray for the families who have lost soldiers/love ones in this war. Many soldiers have died for the price of Freedom both past and present.
As a U.S. Army Reservist or a National Guard soldier, they wonder if they will still have their civilian jobs when they get home after their time is done serving their country.
You are not going to hear this type of detail information or a prayer request from the media or an average soldier. God has put this on my mind to send out a plea to all you believer's in prayer, to take time and LITERALLY PRAY to God the Father. Ask Jesus to intervene in the warfare of the mind of the soldier. Ask the Holy Spirit to carry your prayers across the world to every soldier fighting to defend the Freedom that we all enjoy in the United States.
There is also the prayer for the reunion of families when soldiers return home. I have been there once before from my last deployment, and I know what it is like to return home after the experiences that have come our way.
Soldiers going home are dealing with PTSD. It starts out as a normal response to an extremely abnormal experience such as being in a war zone. It can happen to any soldier. Soldiers who have served in war often experience PTSD and commonly develop other conditions such as alcohol use, depression and even consider suicide. Most soldiers don't understand what is happening in their lives. They experience dreams, horror and unwanted flashbacks of gun shots and mortar rounds. A sound at home may trigger these flashbacks. Another symptom of PTSD is the withdrawal of family member interaction. Many lose their self-esteem.
While being away from your family, you become independent. Your family has to also become independent. You have to survive with out them. They have live with out you until you return home. Families grow apart during times like this with year long deployments.
I have been there before and I have experienced that same thing. When I came home from my first deployment, those were some of the things I deal with. I couldn't really explain what was happening to me, but I know it effected my wife and my boy. They saw it in me. I felt normal, but normal to me was totally different than before I left home. I was diagnosed with P.T.S.D. and I was put on medication. And the funny part about that is, I am just in a support unit. I am a reservist but right in the middle with the regular active duty soldiers. The things we see and experience as soldiers is something you can't explain. It's not easy for someone to understand and feel unless you have experienced it for yourself.
The only thing soldiers know right now is how to survive in a war zone coming from Iraq and Afghanistan.
We deal with daily mortar rounds coming into our camps from the outside of the FOB. Explosions make crater in the ground or damage buildings. Soldiers have been badly hurt by mortars even from just exercising, doing a nice run around the camp and the shrapnel of a mortar injures the soldiers.
When on a convoy, we deal with the fact that our vehicle may blow up from an I.E.D., a road side bomb.
We are drilled with pre-meditated actions and rehearsals of being ambushed by the enemy.
If we fly on a helicopter, there is the fear of being blown out of the sky with a RPG.
This is war.
We are as safe as we can be. We are equipped with the best that the military can provide for us. All of our vehicles are armored now. We wear vest that have bullet proof plates and also have extra protection everywhere possible. A Helmet, eye wear/safely glasses and gloves is our normal uniform.
The world is worried about Iran and their bombs. We need to be concerned about our sin and the lost souls of our soldiers.
Soldiers talk about motorcycles and purchasing sports bikes or Harley's when they return home after this deployment. Military studies show that there have been more deaths of soldiers who have who died racing motorcycles at home after surviving the war in Afghanistan and Iraq since Sept. 11, 2001. The numbers keep rising.
Speed is something that gives a person a rush. After coming from this extreme rush of weapons and the fire power of tanks and bombs, that rush is gone. Soldiers look for a way to find that rush again. Motorcycles don't help.
I have attached a picture of my workers and I. This is my team I work with. I am their boss/their escort. These guys have become my friends. They are local Iraqi men from towns near by and come to work with us. They are paid for their services of $50.00 a week.
These men have families to provide for. I have gotten to know them. I know about their families.
I am 32 years old and the majority of these men are my age. You can see the effects of a war torn country in them and you can hear it in their voices. They have aged skin to look like old men but with the playfulness of young boys.
The guy in front holding the clear cup is 30 years old and has three kids, all boys. The oldest is 6 years old, the middle boy is 3 years old, the youngest is only a year old.....oh, and he has one on the way. His wife is pregnant. She's due here in a few months. He is a very nice down to earth person. He's just like us. They are not the enemy.
One thing about these men is that they need glasses. They don't have good eye sight and no eye doctors or eye specialist to go to, along with no money to buy glasses for themselves. Their money goes to support the family.
I usually have treats and snacks for them when we take breaks. They work hard for me. And I am right there working with them. We work together as men, as if we are working behind our very own houses. Not as a soldier and the Iraqi people, but as FRIENDS.
I talk to my guys/my workers and ask them what life is like with out Saddam, and they say (with the best that we can communicate, with the language barrier) that it is very good with out Saddam in power.
They use to live with fear and worked hard for nothing. Now they are FREE and have the opportunity to make money to support their families.
Due to OPSEC, I don't want to give out their names and put them in danger. Just know that they are just as human as we are. Don't think of them as the bad guys. I know all you hear on the news is that another soldier died and a bomb blew up this or that. Well, I want you to know the real stories of what's happening here. For people who have nothing, we provided Freedom for them. Freedom to provide for their future, for their country.
We do have a chapel here on our FOB. And we do have chapel services with the sounds of war right outside during our services. A helicopter flys over. Or a mortar round hits somewhere on the FOB and you'll feel the impact. Or a fighter jet will roar over the sky above. Or a tank squeaks by right out side the chapel.
I ask for you to pray for the chaplins. They endure so much from questions of soldiers asking why did my friend die. There are few Chaplins to go around. They are stretched thin. Pray for their strength to continue to do their jobs to assist the troops.
Pray for the Christians who are holding steadfast. It's a constant battle. We battle with the reality of life, the reality of war being in the combat zone and the war of the unseen world of the devil. When we try to serve God more, that's when the devil works harder with trials and tribulations.
Pray that we stay humble.
Pray for the Christians who are backsliding. Many soldiers claim to be Christian but their roots don't show anything at all. As children they once had that first love. That first love is gone.
Pray for all branches of service. Here in the war zone or on ships out on foreign waters.
For the soldiers serving Homeland Security.
There may be different branches, The U.S. Marines, The U.S. Air Force, The U.S. Navy and the U.S. Army, but we are all fighting for the United States of America and defending our Freedom to live.
As for me, on a personal note...
I ask for prayer for my wife. I have left her with duties that I did on a normal basis when I was home. All because I had to leave for my call of duty. The house hold duties I took care of when I was home now have to be worked by my wife. Now she has to worry about them. With out me, she is a single parent, with my boy, working to keep my home together.
I ask for prayer for my house. The things inside my house. The washer and dryer, that they continue to run. For the plumbing and the water heater. For the electrical system and outlets. For the locks on the doors and the security of my home. For the smoke detectors and to keep the bugs out of my house, so my wife doesn't get scared of little spiders.
I ask for prayer for my trucks. The wear and tear of everyday driving. My job of changing of the oil and maintenance of the engine has to be done by someone else. My job of putting in gas and washing the truck. Pray for the safety of driving in traffic everyday for my family.
I ask for prayer for my leadership. That I lead my troops with the best of my ability and bring all my troops home to their families.
Pray that I don't take advantage of God's grace.
I ask for prayer in my spiritual life and in my prayer life.
I ask for prayer for my parents. They deal with the fact that their son is away at war. Pray for their health. Pray that stress does not take over their bodies. Pray that they know and acknowledge that I am in the hands of the Almighty God.
Pray for my future, that I survive this war. That I come home in one piece and that God has a long life planned for my family and I.
My BIGGEST PRAYER REQUEST though is, I ask for prayer of my boy. He is in his teenager years. He turned 14 this past December. Having a father figure physically there is needed, especially at this time of his life. I pray that he continues to understand why I must be away from him during these years of his life. I try to look at the bigger picture of why I am here.....but the father side of me keeps asking why I am away from my family....away from my boy when he needs me now the most.
I pray that he continues to help around the house with out question. For his school work, that his grades do not drop because I am away. I want prayer for his spiritual life. He is at an age that all his peers are pressuring him. The pressure of the world all around him. The music that is effecting his inner thoughts. The hormones of the opposite sex is upon him at this age. This is my most heart felt prayer request of all of Ssg Arviso's requests.
Again, I try to look at the big picture of why I am here, but I also fight the thoughts of why I shouldn't be here. I should be home with my family. I should be home with my boy teaching him, especially at his age.
"Lord, please...right now I ask that you touch the heart of my son and keep him close to you"....Amen!
To you, your world right now might be very hard, in your thoughts, but today I want to challenge you to think of others, in harms way. With the Grace of God, brave men and women do their jobs here to allow you to wake up with out the fear of mortar rounds falling from the sky. Wondering if you will be blown up today as you drive to work on the freeways. Wondering when the next memorial service you will be attending for your best friend.
You probably have read all the FORWARD emails of soldiers and our living conditions. Those emails are totally true for many soldiers. We endure the unthinkable for the common citizen of the United States.
You are probably thinking also that this stuff happens everywhere, all the details that I have described for you, happens even back in the States. And you are right, but we here have a bigger mission that we have to deal with on a daily basis. That's why I feel God has put this on my heart to cry out to my family and friends to give you in depth details of what you should be actually praying for when you do pray for the troops.
I am one, but with everyone's help, we can ask God to touch every individual soul in harms way through prayer. So, I challenge you to do something different about this email,...I challenge you to pray an extra prayer for that soldier who is offering his or her life for you and for our land. And not just today or tomorrow, but as long as we are at war with terrorism.
No, this is not one of them emails that something is gonna happen to you at this time or at that time. I am not asking you to forward this email to 5 people or 10. It's up to you what you think needs to be done with this email.
I want to say thank you though, for taking time out of your busy work schedule to read my plea.
I will leave you with this....it's from the Bible, the New King James Version. The verse is 2 Chronicles 7:14...."if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and PRAY and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land".
Thank you in advance. In silence, we look forward to your continued prayers.
From Baqubah, Iraq......
Staff Sgt Arviso, Oliver
United States Army Reserves
Operation: Iraqi Freedom IV 2005-2006
aka.........Ollie
Military Abbreviations Defined:
OPSEC = OPerational SECurity
FOB = Forward Operating Base
I.E.D. = Improvised Explosive Device
V.B.I.E.D. = Vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Device
B.B.I.E.D. = Bicycle Borne Improvised Explosive Device
R.P.G. = Rocket Propelled Gernade
P.T.S.D. = Post Tramatic Stress Disorder
Baqubah = 30 miles north of Baghdad
"I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengthens me"
Pray if you must but I suggest, rather, that if you have opportunity to do so, send care packages, "adopt" a military family here at home and take care of their daily needs. Regardless of any debate about whether or not prayer or religion have any power, there can be no doubt whatsoever that rolling up your sleeves and going to work actually DOES have power. It doesn't even always take money. Mostly just your time. You'll see what I mean if you read this e-mail below.
I submit it with no edits.
--Wag--
------------------Original e-mail----------------
Hello Everyone,
I miss you all! I am ALIVE AND WELL! I do have to say AGAIN, that God is Awesome. He offers so much Amazing Graze to us all. I don't know why we doubt.
Well, I am healthy and doing just fine. I do miss my wife and my boy.
The reason for this email is to ask for a PRAYER REQUEST in detail for every soldier in harms way. It will be a VERY long email. It's up to you now to stop or read on. If you read on, I want to make you think and to do just what I ask in the end.
I hope not to upset you with this email. I just wanted to give you something directly to be praying for when you do pray for the troops. I have sat down with my troops and jotted down all types of prayer requests and came up with all down to reality prayer requests.
If you don't believe in prayer or don't believe in God, then this email should shed some light on what soldiers deal with everyday for you.
It's not all about guns and killing, blood and gore.
I hear from everyone back home and they tell me that they have me and all the troops in their prayers. BUT do some actually mean it? Or do they just say it out of repetitiveness and saying the right thing to a soldier in a war? Do some really know how to pray? Or do you know what to pray for?
Well, I want to challenge you today to pray extra hard now for these soldiers and I. I am one, but their are many, many soldier's and civilian contractor's here in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait and around the world serving our Great Country of the United States.
When you pray for the troops,...what do you pray for FOR THEM? Other than safety from harms way. It not all about killing and death here.
I see soldiers that are looking for something!
They walk around with sad faces and anger attitudes. They are lost people!
Soldiers are searching for God, but they don't know that.
Soldiers are suffering from boredom. The ever famous, "Hurry up and Wait".
Soldiers are suffering from loneliness, being away from home. Feeling like we are in prison on these camps. We can't just get up, jump in the car and drive down to the mall. We can't go to the park and play on the swings with our kids. We can't order pizza and have it delivered. It's like we are in prison. Locked up in jail. We can't go down town to the watch the NBA game or the NFL game in the stadium. And for me, I can't go to the NASCAR Races.
Soldiers are suffering from the addiction to pornography.
Soldiers are suffering from the addition of masturbation.
Soldiers talk constantly about the opposite sex.
Soldiers are influenced by music that sings about violence and killing.
Soldiers are spending too much money on nothing. Shopping the Internet and ordering stuff to satisfy their emptiness.
Soldiers have credit card bills, car payments, mortgage payment, and other bills that is hard to take care of just because soldiers are a half a world away.
Soldiers are wanting to stop smoking but the addiction and stress of war have got them locked in it's grasp.
Soldiers are having alcohol with drawls here. Pray that they become sober out of this. Having alcohol is prohibited for the soldier here in war. But the build up gets out of hand, a soldier returns home for leave or redeployment and dies from drunk driving. What a story that is.....a soldier survives war but dies right at home by a head on car accident.
Soldiers have bad swearing habits. The use of bad language is used in every other word of speech.
Soldiers have goals that they want to accomplish.
Soldiers are wanting to lose weight.
Soldiers want to break the addiction to drinking.
Soldiers battle the unspoken reality of prejudice.
Soldiers battle the unspoken thoughts of female leadership vs. male leadership.
Soldiers argue about religion.
I have a soldier who is reading a book on Satanic Verses. Pray for him!
Married Soldiers are in the middle of adultery.
Soldiers wondering if their husbands or wives are being faithful while they are away serving their country.
Single soldiers are looking for love.
Soldiers are going through divorce.
Soldiers are loosing their children in child custody battles because they are here in Iraq. The court Judges in the states see that soldiers are not at home supporting their kids and for that reason their kids are taken from them.
Most soldiers are young kids right out of high school, that haven't even experienced life as you know it in the adult world of America. Teenager soldiers, right now, all they know is war! These experiences could effect their out look on life when they return home.
Pray for our families back in the states.
I ask for prayers for the Iraqi people! Their families!
Pray for the Iraqi citizens who have stepped up and are becoming Iraqi police or Iraqi Army soldiers. They endure much also, trying to take over the roles of running their own country and bringing security to their own families.
Praying for our enemy, the insurgents.
Pray for our fear of I.E.D.'s.
Pray for the reality of incoming mortar rounds.
Worried about RPG's when flying in Helicopters.
Wondering about V.B.I.E.D.'s when in traffic in local towns and villages.
Thinking that the next insurgent with a B.B.I.E.D.'s doesn't get close to you.
Pray for every day missions of soldiers as they go outside the wire and into the view of the enemy. Pray for the troops that they continue to focus on the mission and not be distracted with all of these mentioned things in this email that I have addressed.
Pray for Commanders and high ranking leaders, that they are the ones making life threatening decisions. Having to send out the troops to carry out the mission.
Pray for the mechanics, so they may keep the trucks and tanks running good while out on missions or behind enemy lines.
Pray for the weather. Soldiers deal with extreme heat and cold. We work right through the rain and the dust storms.
Pray for the health of every soldier. Pray that sickness is not hindering the individual from doing his or her mission.
Pray for each soldier that carries a weapon. Friendly Fire! Friendly fire is something that happens when another U.S. soldier accidentally fires off a round and it hit another U.S. soldier. Either he or she is injured or in some cases, even killed by a stray bullet.
We work during the holidays and weekends when you all back home are enjoying the day off to be with family or go to the movies.
Pray for rest, for the soldier. He or she puts in long hours and keeps going.
Soldiers are up early again the next day exercising and getting ready for another day of business.
Pray for our Leader's in Washington. Pray for them even though you don't support their decisions.
We as soldiers do our jobs even when politicians fight among themselves.
We soldiers do our jobs even when U.S. citizens protest what we do here.
If you don't support this war or think that this war is worth being here, think about this,....with the Iraq war, it has draw terrorist to Iraq and away from the United States. This war keeps you safer even more there in the U.S. It draws the attention here and away from you.
Pray for the soldiers attending their fellow soldier's memorial services.
At home, a U.S. civilian will probably attend a memorial service for a family member or friend who had passed away of natural causes or an accident, maybe every three years.
Here, a soldier will attend more than he or she would want to, in his or her entire life time. The memorial service would be of a friend who became family, who became a close brother or sister during this war.
Pray for the families who have lost soldiers/love ones in this war. Many soldiers have died for the price of Freedom both past and present.
As a U.S. Army Reservist or a National Guard soldier, they wonder if they will still have their civilian jobs when they get home after their time is done serving their country.
You are not going to hear this type of detail information or a prayer request from the media or an average soldier. God has put this on my mind to send out a plea to all you believer's in prayer, to take time and LITERALLY PRAY to God the Father. Ask Jesus to intervene in the warfare of the mind of the soldier. Ask the Holy Spirit to carry your prayers across the world to every soldier fighting to defend the Freedom that we all enjoy in the United States.
There is also the prayer for the reunion of families when soldiers return home. I have been there once before from my last deployment, and I know what it is like to return home after the experiences that have come our way.
Soldiers going home are dealing with PTSD. It starts out as a normal response to an extremely abnormal experience such as being in a war zone. It can happen to any soldier. Soldiers who have served in war often experience PTSD and commonly develop other conditions such as alcohol use, depression and even consider suicide. Most soldiers don't understand what is happening in their lives. They experience dreams, horror and unwanted flashbacks of gun shots and mortar rounds. A sound at home may trigger these flashbacks. Another symptom of PTSD is the withdrawal of family member interaction. Many lose their self-esteem.
While being away from your family, you become independent. Your family has to also become independent. You have to survive with out them. They have live with out you until you return home. Families grow apart during times like this with year long deployments.
I have been there before and I have experienced that same thing. When I came home from my first deployment, those were some of the things I deal with. I couldn't really explain what was happening to me, but I know it effected my wife and my boy. They saw it in me. I felt normal, but normal to me was totally different than before I left home. I was diagnosed with P.T.S.D. and I was put on medication. And the funny part about that is, I am just in a support unit. I am a reservist but right in the middle with the regular active duty soldiers. The things we see and experience as soldiers is something you can't explain. It's not easy for someone to understand and feel unless you have experienced it for yourself.
The only thing soldiers know right now is how to survive in a war zone coming from Iraq and Afghanistan.
We deal with daily mortar rounds coming into our camps from the outside of the FOB. Explosions make crater in the ground or damage buildings. Soldiers have been badly hurt by mortars even from just exercising, doing a nice run around the camp and the shrapnel of a mortar injures the soldiers.
When on a convoy, we deal with the fact that our vehicle may blow up from an I.E.D., a road side bomb.
We are drilled with pre-meditated actions and rehearsals of being ambushed by the enemy.
If we fly on a helicopter, there is the fear of being blown out of the sky with a RPG.
This is war.
We are as safe as we can be. We are equipped with the best that the military can provide for us. All of our vehicles are armored now. We wear vest that have bullet proof plates and also have extra protection everywhere possible. A Helmet, eye wear/safely glasses and gloves is our normal uniform.
The world is worried about Iran and their bombs. We need to be concerned about our sin and the lost souls of our soldiers.
Soldiers talk about motorcycles and purchasing sports bikes or Harley's when they return home after this deployment. Military studies show that there have been more deaths of soldiers who have who died racing motorcycles at home after surviving the war in Afghanistan and Iraq since Sept. 11, 2001. The numbers keep rising.
Speed is something that gives a person a rush. After coming from this extreme rush of weapons and the fire power of tanks and bombs, that rush is gone. Soldiers look for a way to find that rush again. Motorcycles don't help.
I have attached a picture of my workers and I. This is my team I work with. I am their boss/their escort. These guys have become my friends. They are local Iraqi men from towns near by and come to work with us. They are paid for their services of $50.00 a week.
These men have families to provide for. I have gotten to know them. I know about their families.
I am 32 years old and the majority of these men are my age. You can see the effects of a war torn country in them and you can hear it in their voices. They have aged skin to look like old men but with the playfulness of young boys.
The guy in front holding the clear cup is 30 years old and has three kids, all boys. The oldest is 6 years old, the middle boy is 3 years old, the youngest is only a year old.....oh, and he has one on the way. His wife is pregnant. She's due here in a few months. He is a very nice down to earth person. He's just like us. They are not the enemy.
One thing about these men is that they need glasses. They don't have good eye sight and no eye doctors or eye specialist to go to, along with no money to buy glasses for themselves. Their money goes to support the family.
I usually have treats and snacks for them when we take breaks. They work hard for me. And I am right there working with them. We work together as men, as if we are working behind our very own houses. Not as a soldier and the Iraqi people, but as FRIENDS.
I talk to my guys/my workers and ask them what life is like with out Saddam, and they say (with the best that we can communicate, with the language barrier) that it is very good with out Saddam in power.
They use to live with fear and worked hard for nothing. Now they are FREE and have the opportunity to make money to support their families.
Due to OPSEC, I don't want to give out their names and put them in danger. Just know that they are just as human as we are. Don't think of them as the bad guys. I know all you hear on the news is that another soldier died and a bomb blew up this or that. Well, I want you to know the real stories of what's happening here. For people who have nothing, we provided Freedom for them. Freedom to provide for their future, for their country.
We do have a chapel here on our FOB. And we do have chapel services with the sounds of war right outside during our services. A helicopter flys over. Or a mortar round hits somewhere on the FOB and you'll feel the impact. Or a fighter jet will roar over the sky above. Or a tank squeaks by right out side the chapel.
I ask for you to pray for the chaplins. They endure so much from questions of soldiers asking why did my friend die. There are few Chaplins to go around. They are stretched thin. Pray for their strength to continue to do their jobs to assist the troops.
Pray for the Christians who are holding steadfast. It's a constant battle. We battle with the reality of life, the reality of war being in the combat zone and the war of the unseen world of the devil. When we try to serve God more, that's when the devil works harder with trials and tribulations.
Pray that we stay humble.
Pray for the Christians who are backsliding. Many soldiers claim to be Christian but their roots don't show anything at all. As children they once had that first love. That first love is gone.
Pray for all branches of service. Here in the war zone or on ships out on foreign waters.
For the soldiers serving Homeland Security.
There may be different branches, The U.S. Marines, The U.S. Air Force, The U.S. Navy and the U.S. Army, but we are all fighting for the United States of America and defending our Freedom to live.
As for me, on a personal note...
I ask for prayer for my wife. I have left her with duties that I did on a normal basis when I was home. All because I had to leave for my call of duty. The house hold duties I took care of when I was home now have to be worked by my wife. Now she has to worry about them. With out me, she is a single parent, with my boy, working to keep my home together.
I ask for prayer for my house. The things inside my house. The washer and dryer, that they continue to run. For the plumbing and the water heater. For the electrical system and outlets. For the locks on the doors and the security of my home. For the smoke detectors and to keep the bugs out of my house, so my wife doesn't get scared of little spiders.
I ask for prayer for my trucks. The wear and tear of everyday driving. My job of changing of the oil and maintenance of the engine has to be done by someone else. My job of putting in gas and washing the truck. Pray for the safety of driving in traffic everyday for my family.
I ask for prayer for my leadership. That I lead my troops with the best of my ability and bring all my troops home to their families.
Pray that I don't take advantage of God's grace.
I ask for prayer in my spiritual life and in my prayer life.
I ask for prayer for my parents. They deal with the fact that their son is away at war. Pray for their health. Pray that stress does not take over their bodies. Pray that they know and acknowledge that I am in the hands of the Almighty God.
Pray for my future, that I survive this war. That I come home in one piece and that God has a long life planned for my family and I.
My BIGGEST PRAYER REQUEST though is, I ask for prayer of my boy. He is in his teenager years. He turned 14 this past December. Having a father figure physically there is needed, especially at this time of his life. I pray that he continues to understand why I must be away from him during these years of his life. I try to look at the bigger picture of why I am here.....but the father side of me keeps asking why I am away from my family....away from my boy when he needs me now the most.
I pray that he continues to help around the house with out question. For his school work, that his grades do not drop because I am away. I want prayer for his spiritual life. He is at an age that all his peers are pressuring him. The pressure of the world all around him. The music that is effecting his inner thoughts. The hormones of the opposite sex is upon him at this age. This is my most heart felt prayer request of all of Ssg Arviso's requests.
Again, I try to look at the big picture of why I am here, but I also fight the thoughts of why I shouldn't be here. I should be home with my family. I should be home with my boy teaching him, especially at his age.
"Lord, please...right now I ask that you touch the heart of my son and keep him close to you"....Amen!
To you, your world right now might be very hard, in your thoughts, but today I want to challenge you to think of others, in harms way. With the Grace of God, brave men and women do their jobs here to allow you to wake up with out the fear of mortar rounds falling from the sky. Wondering if you will be blown up today as you drive to work on the freeways. Wondering when the next memorial service you will be attending for your best friend.
You probably have read all the FORWARD emails of soldiers and our living conditions. Those emails are totally true for many soldiers. We endure the unthinkable for the common citizen of the United States.
You are probably thinking also that this stuff happens everywhere, all the details that I have described for you, happens even back in the States. And you are right, but we here have a bigger mission that we have to deal with on a daily basis. That's why I feel God has put this on my heart to cry out to my family and friends to give you in depth details of what you should be actually praying for when you do pray for the troops.
I am one, but with everyone's help, we can ask God to touch every individual soul in harms way through prayer. So, I challenge you to do something different about this email,...I challenge you to pray an extra prayer for that soldier who is offering his or her life for you and for our land. And not just today or tomorrow, but as long as we are at war with terrorism.
No, this is not one of them emails that something is gonna happen to you at this time or at that time. I am not asking you to forward this email to 5 people or 10. It's up to you what you think needs to be done with this email.
I want to say thank you though, for taking time out of your busy work schedule to read my plea.
I will leave you with this....it's from the Bible, the New King James Version. The verse is 2 Chronicles 7:14...."if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and PRAY and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land".
Thank you in advance. In silence, we look forward to your continued prayers.
From Baqubah, Iraq......
Staff Sgt Arviso, Oliver
United States Army Reserves
Operation: Iraqi Freedom IV 2005-2006
aka.........Ollie
Military Abbreviations Defined:
OPSEC = OPerational SECurity
FOB = Forward Operating Base
I.E.D. = Improvised Explosive Device
V.B.I.E.D. = Vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Device
B.B.I.E.D. = Bicycle Borne Improvised Explosive Device
R.P.G. = Rocket Propelled Gernade
P.T.S.D. = Post Tramatic Stress Disorder
Baqubah = 30 miles north of Baghdad
"I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengthens me"
Wednesday, February 22, 2006
Why Atheism?
I got this e-mail today.
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Wag,
I am in the process of reading the site devoted to former members of the LDS church: http://www.exmormon.org/
Before proceeding, I should point out I am currently attending a Presbyterian Church locally but am not a member yet. I am not attempting to convince anyone to be saved, born again or join a particular church.
I am curious, however, why a former member of the LDS church would consider themself an atheist? It seems that much of the teaching of the LDS church is based on the conventional Bible so most serious ex-members of the church are better schooled in biblical teachings than the average Protestant or Catholic in mainline Christian churches.
If you are interested in pursuing this conversation further, email me back or drop me a line.
P
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My response:
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Dear P,
I'm certainly willing to engage in a conversation about this topic as it is one which is close to my heart. Likewise, however, I have no desire to convince people to believe as I do so in the process of our conversation, I will refrain from intentionally commenting in such a fashion.
Having said that, there was a time where I believed that those who adhere to the teachings of Christianity and Mormonism and various other religions were deluded and needed to have their heads examined. I should have had my own head examined for thinking such a thing! People are free to believe as they wish and deserve no disrespect for there beliefs.
I also believe people choose their beliefs. Sometimes at a subconscious level but they choose, nonetheless. Belief is not something which can be foisted upon someone and furthermore, it is mostly unproductive to attempt to convince another to change his beliefs. The saying goes, “The man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”
At best, people can converse about belief in such a way as to enhance the understanding they have of one another's choice of belief. By the same token, belief is highly individual and despite the desire of most religions, especially Christian sects, to have everyone believe the same things, it doesn't happen that way.
Consider a married couple. Both spouses are Presbyterian since birth and yet, when it comes to the details of their individual beliefs, there are vast differences between the two. Many of the beliefs of each stem from childhood upbringing. Again, both have chosen their beliefs at some point along the way and adhere to them because they wish to do so.
As a result of choice of belief, I observe that people have a vested interest in assuring themselves that they have made the right decision. Much like buying a car or other big ticket item. Why did a guy buy the Chevy and not the Honda? It hardly matters, really; he tells all his friends it's better and that they should choose as he did. It's an attempt, not to service the needs of his compatriots, but an effort to reassure himself that he made the "right" decision.
Choice of religion tends to follow a similar pattern. There is an added element, however. That is that many who choose a particular religion have the belief that they are now the agents of God in some fashion or other and that God supports what they do. Such a belief creates a sense of duty and to renege on that sense of duty calls for some serious reflection on whether or not they are making the right choice to do so. After all, their eternal souls are at stake!
On to Mormonism. Mormonism teaches its people some key concepts. First, they teach that Mormonism is the "most correct" religion of all. Actually, they teach that the Book of Mormon is the most correct of all books and by extension, therefore, Mormonism is the most correct of all religions. Leaving Mormonism is to choose a “second-tier” religion.
Second, Mormonism teaches its membership that it is the only religion which could possibly be true because all other religions have broken away from the original church which Jesus established. (Of course, this sets aside any discussion of Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, etc. etc.) The only exception, of course, is Catholicism (sp?) and the Book of Mormon shoots that church down in no uncertain terms as being the church of the devil. Most protestant churches, having broken away from that church are again, by extension, satanic in origin and can't possibly have any redeeming value beyond that of their antecedent. Leaving Mormonism is to choose a “false” religion.
Thirdly, there is a long list of other teachings which Mormonism uses to create a sense of uniqueness and exclusivity for their members and makes them feel that they are above all the rest. Three degrees of glory, possession of new revelation, ergo, the Book of Mormon, D&C, PoGP, etc. Teachings of redemption of the dead, a more or less unique "health code," family unity beyond the grave, priesthood authority to the lay person, etc. etc. Leaving Mormonism is to choose commonality.
Fourth, Mormonism traps many of its membership with burdensome responsibilities: Early marriage and child-rearing too early in life, extreme financial burdens, demands on time from leadership, indoctrination 24/7 from childhood on, etc. etc. Leaving Mormonism requires you to give up the martyr’s mantle.
As an example, recently, exclusivity and elitism was further enhanced by Mormonism's proclamation that only the best of the best of the best of missionary candidates would be accepted into the missionary program. Of course, this means that if you're accepted, you're pretty unique among others. They did the same thing 20 years ago when I was preparing for my own mission and when I was accepted, it was a source of pride for me. I’ve heard they did the same thing 20 years prior to that as well. Needless to say, those who are "rejected" (if, in fact, many of them really are) are saddled with a lifetime of guilt should they be unable to shake it off in later years.
That leads me to my last point about Mormonism before I answer your question directly. I should add, that my long-winded posting above is going to be added to my blog along with your question (personal information on you to be deleted, of course).
Mormonism does a wonderful job of saddling its people with the added burdens of fear and guilt. "You'll lose your testimony if you do [insert long list of sins here]" "You're worthless if you . . . ." "If you don't go on a mission, you will never succeed in life." "The 'natural man' is an enemy to God." "You could never have accomplished any good thing without God's divine help." Again, the list is long and burdensome.
A Mormon who discovers his religion is not based in truth, fact or reality has a very unsettling experience, at best, or a traumatic one at worst. Such a Mormon begins to read and research and study a great many things and searches diligently for answers to his concerns. This is a person in search of information needed to determine how best to choose his or her next set of beliefs. Generally speaking, the seeker encounters a great deal of information which, depending on chance, will either reinforce the idea that religion is bunk or will bring about a conclusion that religion is okay, it's just Mormonism which is problematic. A fork may appear in the road and a choice is ultimately made.
When I chose atheism, I did it because not only did I not receive any spiritual confirmation that Mormonism was God's church but I also had no confirmation about my inquiries about other religions. Finally, I received no confirmation that God existed. From that time on, god became a lower-case entity simply because I didn't receive any answers from his spiritual messaging system.
For an instant, I was angry at god, but moments later, realized that if god were not there, there was no reason to be angry; anger at a non-existent entity was a waste of energy. The sense of freedom was instantaneous and at that moment, I had the most spiritual experience I'd ever had in my life as the burdens of my childhood religion left me for good. No guilt or fear remained and I rose from my final prayer a changed man.
A couple of years later, I began to study other religions. Buddhism comes the closest to appealing to me but only from its philosophical implications, not because I believe it has any corner on the market of what happens to us when we die. Other religions seem to contain many of the holes of factuality that Mormonism has. Christian religions based on the Bible are not, in my personal opinion, founded in fact. There are those who believe Biblical teachings are metaphorical, not historical, and that they still have merit. Such a concept relegates those teachings to the realm of philosophy at best, though there are some atheists who will take the insulting approach and call those stories fables.
I don't believe such disrespect is necessary. It insults the serious seeker of truth who made his belief decisions in an intelligent fashion and came to his conclusions about religion with real intent. Such disrespect alienates those who still adhere to their dogmatic beliefs of childhood and who could otherwise benefit from a study and review of their belief system.
To answer your question with the greatest sincerity and integrity, I may run the risk of offending you and others who believe in Christianity. Regardless, it's honest and I'll adhere to it, regardless of future foxholes in which I may find myself!
Of course, not all are atheists for the same reasons but for many, the Bible simply does not withstand the scrutiny of close examination any more than the tomes of Mormonism. The Book of Mormon fails under the light of honest perusal and the Bible, in the opinion of many atheists, has its own share of failings. The question, of course, is this: "Is the Bible the word of a loving god? Or any god?" My study leads me to believe it is not. To date, challenges to it have gone unanswered by more than mere platitudes of belief. At least, that is to say that so far, rational discussion of it and discussion of beliefs in general have gone fruitless. Adherents to Christianity get too emotional for rationality and frankly, most atheists do too. Generally speaking, of course. They remain, therefore, ignorant of the positions of the opposite opinion. Atheists treat believers with disdain and believers look down their noses at atheists.
Not in all cases, to be sure! There are plenty of those who are honest at heart and finally realize that in the end, it doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is that you treat others in this world with the respect they deserve as human beings or as children of god, depending on your perspective.
I'm interested in your thoughts on my impromptu treatise above!
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--Wag--
-----------------------------
Wag,
I am in the process of reading the site devoted to former members of the LDS church: http://www.exmormon.org/
Before proceeding, I should point out I am currently attending a Presbyterian Church locally but am not a member yet. I am not attempting to convince anyone to be saved, born again or join a particular church.
I am curious, however, why a former member of the LDS church would consider themself an atheist? It seems that much of the teaching of the LDS church is based on the conventional Bible so most serious ex-members of the church are better schooled in biblical teachings than the average Protestant or Catholic in mainline Christian churches.
If you are interested in pursuing this conversation further, email me back or drop me a line.
P
-----------------------------
My response:
-----------------------------
Dear P,
I'm certainly willing to engage in a conversation about this topic as it is one which is close to my heart. Likewise, however, I have no desire to convince people to believe as I do so in the process of our conversation, I will refrain from intentionally commenting in such a fashion.
Having said that, there was a time where I believed that those who adhere to the teachings of Christianity and Mormonism and various other religions were deluded and needed to have their heads examined. I should have had my own head examined for thinking such a thing! People are free to believe as they wish and deserve no disrespect for there beliefs.
I also believe people choose their beliefs. Sometimes at a subconscious level but they choose, nonetheless. Belief is not something which can be foisted upon someone and furthermore, it is mostly unproductive to attempt to convince another to change his beliefs. The saying goes, “The man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”
At best, people can converse about belief in such a way as to enhance the understanding they have of one another's choice of belief. By the same token, belief is highly individual and despite the desire of most religions, especially Christian sects, to have everyone believe the same things, it doesn't happen that way.
Consider a married couple. Both spouses are Presbyterian since birth and yet, when it comes to the details of their individual beliefs, there are vast differences between the two. Many of the beliefs of each stem from childhood upbringing. Again, both have chosen their beliefs at some point along the way and adhere to them because they wish to do so.
As a result of choice of belief, I observe that people have a vested interest in assuring themselves that they have made the right decision. Much like buying a car or other big ticket item. Why did a guy buy the Chevy and not the Honda? It hardly matters, really; he tells all his friends it's better and that they should choose as he did. It's an attempt, not to service the needs of his compatriots, but an effort to reassure himself that he made the "right" decision.
Choice of religion tends to follow a similar pattern. There is an added element, however. That is that many who choose a particular religion have the belief that they are now the agents of God in some fashion or other and that God supports what they do. Such a belief creates a sense of duty and to renege on that sense of duty calls for some serious reflection on whether or not they are making the right choice to do so. After all, their eternal souls are at stake!
On to Mormonism. Mormonism teaches its people some key concepts. First, they teach that Mormonism is the "most correct" religion of all. Actually, they teach that the Book of Mormon is the most correct of all books and by extension, therefore, Mormonism is the most correct of all religions. Leaving Mormonism is to choose a “second-tier” religion.
Second, Mormonism teaches its membership that it is the only religion which could possibly be true because all other religions have broken away from the original church which Jesus established. (Of course, this sets aside any discussion of Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, etc. etc.) The only exception, of course, is Catholicism (sp?) and the Book of Mormon shoots that church down in no uncertain terms as being the church of the devil. Most protestant churches, having broken away from that church are again, by extension, satanic in origin and can't possibly have any redeeming value beyond that of their antecedent. Leaving Mormonism is to choose a “false” religion.
Thirdly, there is a long list of other teachings which Mormonism uses to create a sense of uniqueness and exclusivity for their members and makes them feel that they are above all the rest. Three degrees of glory, possession of new revelation, ergo, the Book of Mormon, D&C, PoGP, etc. Teachings of redemption of the dead, a more or less unique "health code," family unity beyond the grave, priesthood authority to the lay person, etc. etc. Leaving Mormonism is to choose commonality.
Fourth, Mormonism traps many of its membership with burdensome responsibilities: Early marriage and child-rearing too early in life, extreme financial burdens, demands on time from leadership, indoctrination 24/7 from childhood on, etc. etc. Leaving Mormonism requires you to give up the martyr’s mantle.
As an example, recently, exclusivity and elitism was further enhanced by Mormonism's proclamation that only the best of the best of the best of missionary candidates would be accepted into the missionary program. Of course, this means that if you're accepted, you're pretty unique among others. They did the same thing 20 years ago when I was preparing for my own mission and when I was accepted, it was a source of pride for me. I’ve heard they did the same thing 20 years prior to that as well. Needless to say, those who are "rejected" (if, in fact, many of them really are) are saddled with a lifetime of guilt should they be unable to shake it off in later years.
That leads me to my last point about Mormonism before I answer your question directly. I should add, that my long-winded posting above is going to be added to my blog along with your question (personal information on you to be deleted, of course).
Mormonism does a wonderful job of saddling its people with the added burdens of fear and guilt. "You'll lose your testimony if you do [insert long list of sins here]" "You're worthless if you . . . ." "If you don't go on a mission, you will never succeed in life." "The 'natural man' is an enemy to God." "You could never have accomplished any good thing without God's divine help." Again, the list is long and burdensome.
A Mormon who discovers his religion is not based in truth, fact or reality has a very unsettling experience, at best, or a traumatic one at worst. Such a Mormon begins to read and research and study a great many things and searches diligently for answers to his concerns. This is a person in search of information needed to determine how best to choose his or her next set of beliefs. Generally speaking, the seeker encounters a great deal of information which, depending on chance, will either reinforce the idea that religion is bunk or will bring about a conclusion that religion is okay, it's just Mormonism which is problematic. A fork may appear in the road and a choice is ultimately made.
When I chose atheism, I did it because not only did I not receive any spiritual confirmation that Mormonism was God's church but I also had no confirmation about my inquiries about other religions. Finally, I received no confirmation that God existed. From that time on, god became a lower-case entity simply because I didn't receive any answers from his spiritual messaging system.
For an instant, I was angry at god, but moments later, realized that if god were not there, there was no reason to be angry; anger at a non-existent entity was a waste of energy. The sense of freedom was instantaneous and at that moment, I had the most spiritual experience I'd ever had in my life as the burdens of my childhood religion left me for good. No guilt or fear remained and I rose from my final prayer a changed man.
A couple of years later, I began to study other religions. Buddhism comes the closest to appealing to me but only from its philosophical implications, not because I believe it has any corner on the market of what happens to us when we die. Other religions seem to contain many of the holes of factuality that Mormonism has. Christian religions based on the Bible are not, in my personal opinion, founded in fact. There are those who believe Biblical teachings are metaphorical, not historical, and that they still have merit. Such a concept relegates those teachings to the realm of philosophy at best, though there are some atheists who will take the insulting approach and call those stories fables.
I don't believe such disrespect is necessary. It insults the serious seeker of truth who made his belief decisions in an intelligent fashion and came to his conclusions about religion with real intent. Such disrespect alienates those who still adhere to their dogmatic beliefs of childhood and who could otherwise benefit from a study and review of their belief system.
To answer your question with the greatest sincerity and integrity, I may run the risk of offending you and others who believe in Christianity. Regardless, it's honest and I'll adhere to it, regardless of future foxholes in which I may find myself!
Of course, not all are atheists for the same reasons but for many, the Bible simply does not withstand the scrutiny of close examination any more than the tomes of Mormonism. The Book of Mormon fails under the light of honest perusal and the Bible, in the opinion of many atheists, has its own share of failings. The question, of course, is this: "Is the Bible the word of a loving god? Or any god?" My study leads me to believe it is not. To date, challenges to it have gone unanswered by more than mere platitudes of belief. At least, that is to say that so far, rational discussion of it and discussion of beliefs in general have gone fruitless. Adherents to Christianity get too emotional for rationality and frankly, most atheists do too. Generally speaking, of course. They remain, therefore, ignorant of the positions of the opposite opinion. Atheists treat believers with disdain and believers look down their noses at atheists.
Not in all cases, to be sure! There are plenty of those who are honest at heart and finally realize that in the end, it doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is that you treat others in this world with the respect they deserve as human beings or as children of god, depending on your perspective.
I'm interested in your thoughts on my impromptu treatise above!
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--Wag--
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